14c28n steel vs d2

there seems to be an optimal procedure for every alloy (provided its heat treated to industial standards). Dr. Thomas is a friend of ours here at Blade HQ, and with his help, weve worked to create this knife steel guide. The big names in powder metallurgy are Crucible (CPM- steels), Carpenter (CTS- steels), Bohler Microclean (M390), and Uddeholm Superclean (Elmax, Vanax). Hi Larrin, thanks so much for writing this blog and putting so much reliable information into such an accessible form. This was described in this article on Vanax heat treating. This is to keep the focus on the elements that are making the biggest difference. Its soft, with very low carbon content. If the properties of a knife meet your knife needs and it has the above characteristics, then it qualifies as a quality knife. What carbon/tool steel would you choose for a survival knife if a PM steel was too expensive? 14C28N vs. D2. Sandvik 14C28N steel offers excellent corrosion resistance, exceptional toughness, good edge retention, and is easier to sharpen. Even it enhances corrosion resistance and wear resistance. This means consumers should be able to maintain these quality knives at home. Diamond and CBN stones make sharpening those steels easier. The chart below has dotted lines which indicate the average effect of hardness for any given steel. That is professionaly popular such as the Japanese designation SKD11, Uddeholm Sverker 21, German designation 1.2379, Hitachi SLD and others. Sharpening the knives might be challenging, but the D2 knife is high quality and affordable. That is an air-hardening- high carbon, high chromium tool steel. Things are similar with resistance to chipping and edge deformation. European steel company Sandvik produces 14C28N, a non-powder metallurgy steel. Rex 45 This is one of the fundamental tradeoffs in steel. My test is for comparing different steels, not necessarily for a go/no go test for saltwater applications. In general, the more carbide the steel has and the larger the carbides the lower is the toughness. This does not predict which knife will cut longer or be more resistant to chipping. 14C28N is a stainless steel that was developed specifically for use in knives. Divers, sailors, and anglers need knives that will resist corrosion above all else. 9Cr is the top end of the series and is quite good as good or better than AUS-8. I did a test with knives in 440A (stainless), D2 (high alloy steel with some corrosion resistance), and 1095 (no corrosion resistance). The only thing putting me off immediately buying the p135 is the 14c28n steel. It wont hang long with high-end powder metal steels(a method of making steel using ultra-pure micrograins of steel that are heated and pressed together). Honestly, yes, because its perfect steel for your knife, besides it depends on which knife, so when youre talking about chef knives, then 14c28n would be an ideal pick thanks to professional corrosion resistance and edge retention. If you would like to change your settings or withdraw consent at any time, the link to do so is in our privacy policy accessible from our home page.. while its a very intuitive method and a simple way to e.g. Is it similar but worse or better at one of the 3 things? And while it can be hard depending on the heat treat, I have found it easily chips, causing microscopic dings in the edge when hardened to a high level on a thin blade. Knives are one of our oldest tools, so it makes sense that they have evolved into thousands of styles since the first person chipped one out of stone. Also many hardwoods will dull planer blades just because theyre more dense. 1. 1095 Conventionally produced steels include AEB-L, A2, 52100, 12C27, 14C28N, and AUS-8/,8Cr13MoV. It doesnt hold an edge well, but its so easy to sharpen that you can get it back to razor sharpness in a few minutes. 2. How long sharpen? I wrote an article about knife steel ratings available online in 2018, where I concluded that none of them were very good. And a label: AEB-L. If you are a newbie, sharpening D2 knives will be a struggle, but it is doable with practice and the right sharpening tools. Should you continue to scroll further, you may find yourself lost in a seemingly endless list of knife steel wealth and knowledge. 14C28N knives offer better toughness than D2 knives. I would like to see the rating and performance on test of the Chinese Steels, that some people use to say its cheap garbage, like 3Cr13MoV, 4Cr13, 4Cr13Mo, 4Cr14MoV, 5Cr15MoV, 6Cr13MoV, 7Cr17MoV, 8Cr13MoV, 9Cr13MoVCo, 9Cr18MoV, 9Cr19MoV, and the 14cr14MovNB to see if they are similar, worse or better than the steels that they copyi believe we gonna have some good unexpected results. What would be the best deal to use I currently alternate between 20CV S35vn and D2. In some previous articles I have shown the balance between my toughness and edge retention measurements such as in the following chart, where the high alloy non-stainless are in orange and the blue are stainless: However, one issue with these charts are that difference in toughness is that a linear scale for toughness is a bit misleading for visualizing practical toughness differences. Top quality steel yields perfect toughness, edge retention, wear and corrosion resistance, an easy to sharpen, long lasting and durable everyday carry that will fast become a user favorite. This is a midprice steel with matching performance. 8cr13mov if proper slicing geometry its good budget steel if you dont rust it and no prying or screwing its ok cutting steel. REX 121 is a powder steel produced by Crucible. G10 Are you okay with that? 2) you do not go into the sharpening in much detail. An example of data being processed may be a unique identifier stored in a cookie. Even though it has very high hardness, its also still decently resistant to corrosion and quite tough. Many steel ratings articles pay lip service to the importance of heat treatment without providing examples. And Mn and Si isnt shown at all for the high alloy steels, even though those elements are added to all of them. Does that mean that companies like Tops, Kabar and ESEE would be better off using 420HC instead of 1095 on their fixed blades? 14c28n is the most popular material for the knife: stainless steel and made by the Swedish company. Because of its abrasion-eating hardness, knives with REX 121 come at an exceptionally high price. Thats a pretty large difference in two budget steels that are often compared to each other. High Alloy Tool Steel and High Speed Steel Ratings. Three main characteristics differentiate steels from one another: corrosion resistance, hardness, and toughness. There are a lot of different types of steel out there . I mean the box cutter type, with the replaceable trapezoidal blades. When we plot toughness vs edge retention on a log scale instead we get a straight line that is a better visualization of toughness differences. One is certainly anti-China bias, as you pointed out. The D2 steel compares nicely with 14c28n steel in terms of edge retention, as it's quite hard as well. The best scenario is when the steel, heat treatment, and geometry are selected for the knife and the use. The solid lockup and decent blade design make these two knives well suited for camping. I personally don`t care about stainless (sic! 14C28N steel is not very hard steel which makes it easier to sharpen. There are also hardness/toughness and hardness/TCC charts.but no tables backing this charts. As to a difference between 8.6 and 8.5, all of the ratings here are rounded to the nearest 0.5 because better than that probably shows false precision. its like with cars, most of them are not a corvette or a porsche. The 25 dps sharpened knife saw almost no edge damage with 2 ft-lbs while a 15 dps edge saw a significant chip with only 0.3 ft-lbs and catastrophic chipping with 1.4 ft-lbs. 3) catra is (as far as i know) the only accredited (iso/en) testing method. Thank you for the accurate data. There is buzz out there but I havent seen anything solid yet in the world of steel. Many custom makers enjoy AEB-L, as its easy to machine but still has a high hardness, around 62 HRc. most knives are being made out of these and other mediocre steels like 14c28n, 420j2, 425m. I havent tested Sleipner yet. imo o lot depends on how the blade is sharpened. Maxamet and Rex 121 are so extreme in terms of wear resistance and edge retention that I rated them higher than 10 because otherwise it throws off the ratings for everything else. Hi there, Uddeholm lists it as somewhat worse in toughness than A2 but somewhat better in wear resistance. Its not a regression line, it is just a line through the best steels. 14C28N and D2 steel are not the same. But it doesnt have great wear resistance and thus doesnt hold an edge particularly well. It would be interesting to try to develop a conversation between /geometry/edge retention/toughness, so we could say e.g. In particular, I have found the ESEE/Rowen 1095 to be less likely to chip and better at holding an edge than the KA-BAR version even in knives with the same role, thickness, and blade length. Most of the discussion of how the ratings were generated, various caveats and details, etc. The D2, on the other hand, has a thicker and more durable blade that is better suited for tough tasks like chopping wood or prying open cans. This is an old high-carbon (non-stainless) steel. Read about my tests in this article. Low Alloy tool steels have small alloy additions to increase hardenability so they harden more easily in oil rather than water. It is among the steel knives with exceptional toughness while maintaining excellent corrosion resistance. I have a couple questions, not directly related to this specific post, that I wanted to ask publically so that others could find your responses as well, so here seemed as good a place as any. The big difference in properties vs the low alloy steels, however, are the harder carbides that are found in these steels. Thats a little too far, but you get the point.). And only Vanax and LC200N have been free from corrosion with a 3.5% saltwater solution, though MagnaCut was close. It gets exceptionally sharp, a nod to its origins as a razorblade steel. Socould you please clarify which steel is the outlier and which is the line>. Steels without these attributes are much less costly. Vanax gives up some toughness and hardness vs MagnaCut for saltwater levels of corrosion resistance. They made planer blades out D2 for its edge retention. Around 61 Rc usually. The steel is susceptible to overheating during hardening do not overheat. There are so many interactions between them that predictions are difficult without modeling software. Other factors that can be added in are corrosion resistance, hardness, and cost. Almost all of the knives in my EDC rotation are Spydercos, in exotic steels. It has high levels of chromium and carbon, making it extremely resistant to corrosion. ApexUltra is a steel that we are working on that had excellent properties in small batch production (50 lbs). After the steel is quenched it is reheated to a lower temperature to increase toughness and decrease hardness. Moreover, the blades will serve you longer because they do not wear out faster with frequent use and sharpening. Any thoughts how Sleipner might fare in the ratings? Most low alloy tool steels and carbon steels also have fine carbide structures without powder metallurgy processing. 12C27 Its so high in hardness that Maxamet knives usually ship with desiccating packages. The biggest factor for cost of knife steel is whether it is produced with conventional ingot technology or powder metallurgy. Manage Settings As with high alloy tool steels, the amount of vanadium can be a shortcut to predicting the general level of wear resistance and edge retention. (I think the 420HC estimate in that post was based on simulation or computer modeling, since you didnt spray testing any of the 400 series.) Steel high in carbides cant be stamped out; it must be cut by a waterjet or laser, which takes time and is more expensive. The stainless steel rating. Properties: 14C28N: D2: Edge retention: 4/10: 7/10: Ease of sharpening: 6/10: 3/10: Corrosion resistance: 4/10: 4/10: Toughness: Hi Jimmie, thanks for your comments. The definition of a quality knife differs among users because of varied needs, but there are basic properties that every quality knife must have. As such, the performance of the steel is entirely dependent upon the steels being utilized. The ESEE had significant edge damage while the MagnaCut knife did not. Its possible that there are steel manufacturers with better processing which would lead to an even carbide distribution but I cant say that without seeing it for myself. Steels that can be high in edge retention and toughness are desirable for general use knives. also the angle is by far the most important factor in catra testing, so such results might be irrelevant. Or is this an argument that tends to be rooted more in the presumption that Japanese steel > Chinese steel than any practical difference in reality? Could you please compare it to Shirogami #1 and Agomi #1, I didnt find anything in terms of grain size ragarding thoese steels on the Internert. 14C28N steel also has excellent wear resistance due to its high chromium content. Steels that are higher in hardness and wear resistance are usually lower in toughness. Carpenter produces this powder steel. This steel is quite corrosion resistant and sharpens easily. Do honing steels as used on kitchen knives actually do anything useful? When describing the characteristics of a steel, a few common attributes are commonly talked about. Theyre excellent for choppers, hard-use folders, and outdoor knives that see impacts and heavy use when used at medium hardness. Pretty interesting that regrinding a knife you already have can seemingly take its performance to that of significantly better steels. 8670 and 5160 are good choices for large knives that need very high toughness. Steels do come at various price points, however, depending on the cost of producing them and the cost for the knife company to work with them. It richly deserves its reputation for high-quality gained over the years by Sandvik, a Swedish manufacturer of world-renowned steel. Because of their good edge retention, these steels are quite versatile in folders and fixed blades. So, its hard steel is easy to sharpen. Everything you need to know to buy the right knife for the job. Chris Reeves version, which is about two points less hard than others, is quite good. Stainless steels usually top out around 64 Rc and may require careful heat treating to get there. Read more. There is an acceptable range for every element so this doesnt mean that 1084 will always have exactly 0.84% carbon. It was your original article on ratings that brought me to knifesteel nerds so its great to see your results put back into a form that will no doubt be distributed \ plagiarized widely, hopefully leading to more rational thought and better understanding by the knife consuming public (not that the misleading marketing will go away). Many knife enthusiasts are concerned with categorizing steels as excellent, good, poor, etc. While higher hardness does lead to improved edge retention the bigger reason to have higher hardness is for resisting edge deformation. No mainstream companies use SM100, and the niche makers that do usually charge more than $1,000 for knives with SM100 blades. Low Carbon steels like AEB-L wont hold up to wood cutting even though it can hit 64 hard, it just doesnt have enough Carbon.. 14c28n steel would be a great pick thanks to its high retention and corrosion, it would be great for a normal EDC knife. SUS410 Editors note: This article was first published in May 2015 and was most recently updated on May 25, 2020. In use, its very similar to 440C and VG-10. Maxamets hardness results in incredible edge retention and a nightmarish sharpening and machining experience. . -> Maybe prequenched 14c28n could be a little tougher than AEB-L? If you shop for knives based strictly on steel, you might be disappointed. Diving into the pool of knife personalization possibilities is a fantastic way to fend off the post-knife-buy blues. By signing up for email newsletters, you agree to GearJunkie's, Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to email a link to a friend (Opens in new window). ), intended use will give you all the answers. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. However the 14c28n steel would be great for an EDC knife with typical usage. Micarta Steels with very high vanadium content like Vanadis 8, CPM-10V, K390, CPM-15V, etc. The 8Cr13MoV vs D2 debate. This is a bit of a guess because I cant find un-notched Charpy data on it. Its exceedingly tough and relatively hard, but its not stainless. Actually, Id be thinking 14C28N, but I want to leave stainless out. The steel falls under the Sandvik series of steels and makes one of the 7 steel grades in this family including 12C27M, 14C28N, 13C26, and others. However, Kershaw asked Sandvik to make their 13C26 steel more resistant to corrosion, and the result was 14C28N. You do not expect the prices to be as low as those of low-end knives, but you will get high performance at affordable prices with either. and corrosion resistance than the 420HC steel. Hi Larrin Youve occasionally mentioned cryo treatment in your posts, including here with LC200N. It is a premium steel that is known for its excellent balance of hardness, corrosion resistance, and edge retention. S35VN S110V has improved corrosion resistance at the cost of some toughness compared to S90V. Some steel companies charge more than others. Knife steel nerds have a great write up on 14c28n nik_was 2 yr. ago . I guess the question is whether toughness increases faster than edge retention decreases. the problem is in the innumerable combinations of grades, grains sizes and coatings available. The majority of knives target 63 Rc or below so this limitation of stainless steels does not always come into play but can be an important factor for certain knives targeting high performance and thin edges. He is the mind and writer behind Knife Steel Nerds, the go-to source for all knowledge about knife steel. [Complete Steel Guide], What is Vg-10 steel?- [Steel Knife Review], The Difference Between 440c steel vs d2: Compared guide, Is 8cr13mov Good Knife Steel [Complete Steel Guide], Amazon Best Sellers in Pocket Knives & Folding Knives. blue steel However, D2 steel has better edge retention, while 14C28N offers a better sharpening experience. What it is: 14C28N is a Sandvik stainless steel commonly used in razors and kitchen knives. A mirror finish is the best at resisting corrosion and a rough finish means rust and corrosion is more likely. This is a non-powder Japanese steel used primarily in Spyderco knives. . The steel was developed to be free from chromium carbides which gives it properties similar to balanced non-stainless tool steels like CPM-4V and CPM-CruWear. XHP is an exceptionally well-balanced steel with excellent all-around attributes. Dr. Thomas you spoke of using a different media for cutting test and I have some extra veg tan leather and was wondering what are the parameters of the leather you need? But if you want to know what the coolest blade material is, for my money, SM100is it. Hammering through hickory, digging at roots in sandy soil, and cutting around bone did nothing to chip, dent, or roll the edge of my 3V knives. Powder metallurgy steels with low vanadium content like CPM-1V and Z-Tuff/CD#1 have extremely high toughness. This is good for ease in heat treating in large batches and for even cooling that greatly reduces warping and size changes. The Vargo Sobata 398 is unlike any other knife on this list. HA! H2 Theres a green triangle at about RC 60.5 and toughness over 40. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. With conventional steels this limited vanadium additions to about 4-5%, and this was greatly expanded when powder metallurgy was developed. Some of our partners may process your data as a part of their legitimate business interest without asking for consent. H1 and 420 also have excellent corrosion resistance but are limited to lower hardness and edge retention. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. 14c28n vs. D2 Steel D2 is as rigid as 14c28n, thus has almost equal edge retention abilities. Let the job at hand be your guide. LC200N has similar properties to those two but with saltwater levels of corrosion resistance. Sandvik 14C28N steel is better than D2 steel in corrosion resistance and toughness. Knifemakers use dozens of steel types to create knife blades. D2 seems to run at high hrc. 14C28N is stainless steel, and its knives offer excellent rust resistance and toughness than D2 steel. I love reading through all the data youve gathered and making note of all the trends (Im a physical organic chemist). This grade can be treated cryogenically to improve edge retention. document.getElementById( "ak_js" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Cool! Then you can compare 14c28n vs d2, and we hope you will find the right one for your needs. Almost all consumer-grade pocket knives, EDC knives, fixed blade knives, etc will be in the range of a Rockwell Hardness rating of 54 to 65 HRC. The knife does dull faster. In thick forms, like a fixed blade, 1095 isa tough, low-cost steel. Your email address will not be published. Available in Kershaw knives (as of 2012) and in other . GearJunkie Copyright 2013 2023. So hard vanadium carbides means you get more edge retention for a given amount of carbide. Tough steel can handle impacts without gross chipping or a tip breaking off. Its hard enough, tough enough, and stain-resistant enough. 14c28n is the most popular material for the knife: stainless steel and made by the Swedish company. As wear resistance is increased the differences between conventional and powder metallurgy steels become greater. vanax Is this at the same hardness? If thats true why do you include it in the stainless steel category? Or, is this perhaps a historically useful practice that made sense on softer/less tough steels, but would make less sense on some newer steels that can be used at higher hardness and thus higher edge stability? These are Chinese-produced steels that recently started showing up in Chinese-made knives. Softer steel usually forms larger burrs and they are more difficult to deburr. as you mentioned catra indicates the edge angle as being by far the most important variable. Are you familiar with anything similar on the metallurgy/knife steel side of things? Are you looking for 14c28n steel with other steel? It can withstand a lot of wear and tear. Most of these steels rely on particle metallurgy and are therefore more expensive. I couldnt find much on 5160 steel and from a knife makers point of view if you are saying youre the preferred supplier of special ops than I dont understand this choice in knife steel. A new steel from Crucible, SPY27 launched in 2020 in the Spyderco Native 5and Para 3. Since the heat treatment is done before you get your knife, and its impossible to tell how good the heat treatment is with your eye, you often must rely on the manufacturers reputation for a good heat treat. Get for a complete guide about other steel; you can read 14c28n vs 8cr13mov reviews. But Ive found it lacking in hardness, even when compared to cheaper steels like AUS-8. I have a (relatively) short introduction before getting into the ratings with a few important things to put them into context. Below I have shown the difference in carbide volume between AEB-L, CPM-10V, and Rex 121 to get an idea of how much more carbide there is in the high edge retention steels. 14C28N VS D2 The two sheets of steel are comparable in terms of toughness and corrosion resistance. At the end of the article I gave a list of reasons why I hadnt made my own ratings chart, two big reasons were: 1) I didnt yet have articles explaining what edge retention and toughness even is (this was early on in Knife Steel Nerds), 2) I didnt have good experimental numbers on many steels. Lets talk about the clip-on pocket knife. There are significant differences between them because 14C28N is stainless steel, while D2 steel is a semi-stainless tool steel. Like 154CM, there is a newer version, S35VN, which shares many of the same attributes as S30V but is easier to craft into a knife thanks to niobium. But among the steels youll find at Cabelas and the like, this is a pretty good choice. Therefore, if your priority is a knife with the best toughness on the market, you can never go wrong with the varieties of 14C28N. Let's compare 14c28n steel with other steels, and for this, I use four criteria; Edge Retention, Corrosion resistance, Ease of Sharpness, and Toughness and on a scale of 1-10 (10 being the highest) let's see the performance of each steel. compare different heat treats of the same component, it lacks a theoretical foundation and its not clear how to relate it to the real world. A more obtuse edge angle is much more resistant to chipping than an acute edge. I have a bachelor's degree in Mechanical engineering with a specialization in material science. Notice that with the same edges on the same media, the 9Cr18Mov from Real Steel performs about as well as the average Chinese D2. The table shows combinations of knife steel properties for different classes of steel. VG-1 is a non-powder steel made by Japanese specialty steelmaker Takefu. I have the average composition of the steels rated above (plus some extras) so you can see what the different names refer to. Thanks to its very high hardness (64-66 HRc compared to the average of 58-62 HRc), ZDP-189 can be ground thinner and sharpened less often. There has been some internet controversy over the grinding and heat treat of this steel. Heres a brief description of their impact on the resulting steels properties. There are still a few things I dont know but we have enough information to make educated guesses where data isnt available. Required fields are marked *. Also how did you arrive at the edge retention & toughness numbers for 8cr13mov and for BD1N toughness? Vancron would work well in a kitchen knife. can you strike twice as fast with the knife? Youre right I had to check my spreadsheet. Its hard to say. S45VN It mainly made for knife and it high in Chromium for excellent corrosion resistance. Steels 7Cr and below arent worth your time or money. CTS-204P and CPM-20CV are nearly identical steels made by other manufacturers. However,M390, CTS-204P, and CPM-20CV are all pretty difficult to resharpen, so maintain that edge! I think you wrote an article a bit ago on CTS-XHP and concluded that like D2 and ZDP-189 it wasnt really stainless (although stainless is a somewhat arbitrary line). But the true calling card of INFI is its insane toughness. The pictures below show the microstructures of the three classes of stainless steel on the market. So setting edge geometry for the type of knife and intended use is very important. third and most important is what happened to the burr. Non-stainless steels can be heat treated to 66 Rc or even higher depending on the particular steel. Sign up to receive GearJunkie content direct to your inbox. D2 is a high carbon, high chromium die steel and is the highest carbon alloy tool and die steel typically used in knife making. You can see micrographs of different knife steels to compare their carbides in this article. im led to believe tha the melting procedure is more important with these steels than the exact composition.